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Hey. How's it going?
You like how I waited for you to sit down for was sweet. Thank you. Somebody brought that up last night when I He was just sitting there, like I'm like, hurry up. Hey, if
you're like, who are these people? I I just want you to know that I got a this great guest up here with me, and and and and looking at her, you think whoever she married is a lucky and blessed man. And and you would be correct. Because this is my wife of in a couple months, she'll be of thirty three years. Yep.
Been married thirty three in a couple months, all in a row, and most of them good. So we
hope to keep going on this streak here. But so this is Carrie. Depends on how this goes. Yeah. Depends on how we'll see. We've only done it three times already. Or yes. Three. Yeah. I don't even know how many Who knows anymore? Yeah. You haven't been up here for a while. You forget. When you do it five times, you don't even know if you believe what you're saying anymore. Right. So yeah. Sorry if we repeat ourselves because I don't know. Remember if I said it last time or this? Bingo. So we are in this
last part of Ephesians. We're talking about for the next few weeks marriage and and parenting. Couple weeks on on marriage and this week on what is the the the goal and the roles of marriage. Next week, how do you have critical, crucial conversations
to be able to actually get somewhere in a relationship? That'll be great for even if you're you're not married. That'll be great for how do you have these conversations. And then the last week, we'll we'll we'll share all of our horrible mistakes as parents. But no.
But, you know, when you first get married been married a long time now. And but when you first get married, Carrie, we were talking about this, about how it's weird that no matter how well you think you know someone, and we got married, our one year anniversary of dating was several months after we were married,
so not the recommended. So so you get in and and you start to realize some things that you didn't know, and you also start to realize some of the biases of what you expected roles would be in marriage. Right. Yeah. For instance, I No. So I grew up with a dad who was just handyman, mister fixate. Really knew how to do
all those kind of handyman things. He was very meticulous, very methodical, very detailed, and everything he did, he did well and complete and you can see where I'm probably going with this. No. So I kind of just had this this expectation or just assumption that all
husbands, dads just that's what they did. They they fixed things and they were they were very detailed and complete about it. Well
a couple you know months into our marriage I I had realized that like the side mirror on his truck was just like like just dangling there for a while just chilling, hanging out. Are you gonna I I was just like I don't are you gonna fix that? I feel like that's kind of an important part of a truck. I don't know.
And he was like, it's fine. I'm fine. I'll look over my shoulder. It's okay. Whatever. Was like, okay.
Anyway, I I started to get like, are you wait. It's been now it's been a couple weeks. Like, no. For real. This is getting embarrassing. Like, are you gonna are you gonna fix it? Finally, he went out there and he comes back and he's like, I fixed it. I'm like, okay. So I I go out there and I was
I was like, wait I don't really under he like like duct taped, like just just wrapped it. It's the all purpose tool. Poor guy. He was just like holding on for dear life, just surviving to this. So I I don't know. Just realized at that point like, okay. Like I oh, it's not what I thought. All guys aren't like this.
So I I just had some some adjusting on my thoughts to do. Anyway, I'd love to end the story there, but I do have to admit that he he also, you know, came into the marriage with probably some expectations, maybe he felt a little deceived because well first of all he had his mother was this amazing woman who
made these wonderful meals, ate like full breakfast together and these wonderful dinners anyway. Also he's you know my family's Italian and so my mom and my grandma are also making these amazing meals but unfortunately that gene didn't like pass on to me, and I'm just Well, the skill did.
It was the will that didn't pass on. He's
not wrong.
Yeah. So so we we just kind of had to had to look at you know some things and and reevaluate, readjust. But anyway, I I don't want anyone to to worry. We figured this out. We we have worked this out. You know Bill admitted you know he does not have the the gift of know how, but he does have the gift of know who. He
he is actually the handyman of all handyman because he is. And I have a phone and it has an app on it and it's called Uber Eats and it's like the best I so I'm a great cook too. So we are we're was Last
night, we're in the lobby. Our whole family's around and some of my son and them were coming over and we're all deciding what we want from Red Robin because we had nothing to eat at home. And we're ordering and someone goes, what do you guys eat? Oh, you guys are serious about what you said. Am not lying. Uber And I go, we order right now, it'll get there right when we get home. It'll be awesome. You know? And so there you go. Yeah. And and also in all fairness, full disclosure, part of the reason of why I probably didn't wanna I didn't fix the mirror is you didn't have a car when we got married. Your dad bought us a VW Bug,
and you liked my truck more than the car. So I knew that when the car when the truck with the mirror down, you you were embarrassed and wouldn't ask to drive it. Awesome.
Never told her that. I just revealed that right now after thirty three years. It was kind of a defense mechanism. But you're right. I am wreck it, Ralph. I'm not Yeah. You you are right on that. So and and and and the reality of that is it's that's funny now.
And a lot of us deal with even bigger expectations and struggles, but even that can be very irritating. Because it doesn't matter what the expectation is. When you go into a marriage with an expectation of the other person's role,
you are setting yourself up for resentment no matter what. Mhmm. And and and the problem with with having going into marriage with expectations of the other person's role is the best you can ever get out of expectation is to not fail.
Because if you just do what's expected, you don't like, why do I need to thank you? Why don't you care? Like, of course, you're gonna do that. You should do that. And and so the problem with starting a marriage with this idea that it's a contract of where you have expectations instead of a covenant,
where you don't worry about the other person's role, you worry about what is my role. Not what are you gonna do for me, it's who am I gonna be for you. And and and that kinda brings us to this this dilemma that can create problems.
And and and the reality, what we wanna do is what is this this idea? And what we gotta understand, the big idea here, and we're gonna read out of of Ephesians five is simply this, is you you you can't understand your role if you don't understand the goal, basically.
Is you can't understand your role until you understand the goal. If you don't understand what is the point of being married,
then when God says the role of here's what a husband should do, here's what a wife should do, you're gonna be really confused by that if you don't grab onto what is the goal of marriage to begin with. So Carrie, you gonna go ahead and read that Yeah. For I'd love to read it. So starting in verse 21 of chapter five,
And further submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. For wives this means submit to your husband as to the Lord. For a husband is ahead of his wife as Christ is ahead of the church. He is the savior of his body, the church. As the church
submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything.
For husbands, this means love your wives just as Christ loved the church. He gave his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God's word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish.
Instead she will be holy and without fault. In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies for a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it just as Christ cares for the church and we are members of his body.
As the scriptures say, a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife and the two are united into one. This is a great mystery but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect the husband.
There you go. So right in there, it it lists what is the goal of marriage, and then it says what's the role? We actually all have the same role. It's just how does that role play out is different.
And and if you read those last couple verses, Ashley says the goal of marriage. And when it talks about this, this picture of Christ's relationship to the church. What are we supposed to be to one another and be one? It's we're we're supposed to be Jesus to one another. In other words, the goal of marriage is holiness,
not happiness. You have to know that going in.
It's not I'm gonna find someone else that they're responsible to make me happy. It's we be Jesus for one another. We pursue Christ likeness, and a marriage actually helps us. It forces us. If we're gonna act out our role, we are going to choose to be Christ like to another human being.
And and and that's holiness, being set apartness to be different.
And and the reality is, I know that sounds sad, holiness not happiness. It doesn't mean you sit around singing Gregorian chant and being never getting your needs met or anything. No. It's the opposite of that. See, when you pursue happiness, that's that personal happiness. The problem with personal happiness is you have your idea of what you think it's supposed to make me happy, and you will usually walk away from holiness in the pursuit of happiness. Because if God asks you to do something, then I go, that doesn't sound like I'll be happy. I won't do it.
And then you put that onto the other person to make sure they do it for you. Now you're back to expectations, and expectations are just planned resentments. And expectations make it about the other person, and that becomes selfish. And then it becomes this battle royale the whole time. But Christ like holiness
will lead to a deeper happiness. It'll lead to needs actually being met. It'll lead to to to to being who we're supposed to be. It'll lead it'll lead to peace, joy, contentment, happiness. So we have to understand that what is the goal of why we got married? And if we embrace the goal, we can then understand,
at least understand the role. Because the the role is still hard. And that verse 21 tells us what the role is for both husband and wife. It's one role. It says submit to one another as to the Lord. It means the authority is God. We have responsibility.
God's the one who's in authority. But then it says how do we do that? By being under authority of each other. That word submit there in verse 21 means to voluntarily place yourself under the authority. And it says, wives do that. And most people say that's all the guy wants to talk about. But verse 21 qualifies,
and so does a husband. Guys, we submit to our wife. Place ourselves under the authority by living out the particular role that means. So we all both have a different position to play within the same role of submitting to one another. It's like sports. Let me help the guys understand this. When you're playing football,
the offense all has the same goal. Get to the end zone. And the offense all takes part in that same role of get the ball that way. But each person on the offense has a different position. They don't play exactly the same way, but they're doing the exact same thing.
Does that help you guys? Light going? There you go. I understand sports. Good. So easy a caveman can understand it. Even Wreck It Ralph can understand this. Okay? And and and so when we do that, we have that so what's that talking about is the best way to word that to us to understand this submit is mutual selflessness.
That's how we be Jesus to one another. We mutually be selfless and put the other person as we by playing our position. And the positions are are simply stated there. And the way we I like I worded them is how do we play that position of mutual selfless selflessness Is the wife acts with respectful support,
and the husband leads through sacrificial love.
And they're both an act of submission to God and submission to one another. And the reason they're submission is both of those are scary for the individual. Like for the wife, that idea of respectful support, scary for some reason. For the guys to lead through sacrificial love, scary for many reasons. And it's usually the same reason, but let's let's let's just start with you so we can run out of time and stop there. Okay?
No. No. No. Let's the the this respectful support.
You got a good illustration of, like, just talk to one part of our our life where we're trying to come to a make a decision on it, and how did we work through this, and and how you showed respectful support, and why it was hard, and what you did about it. Yeah. Well, first I love the the illustration of
with a wife and the respectful support, how how I show that. I think the example is Jesus in the Garden Of Gethsemane where he willingly submitted to the father. He was equal with the father, but so so submitting did not take away any worth or value obviously. So I'm always keeping that in mind. But but yeah, we have this
so you've probably heard Bill say that it was, you know, Rock Point was my idea, and he's right. It was. It was my idea. So if you love it, if you hate it, her fault. Wait. That's not where I wanted to go with it. I just wanted to wash my hands. No. But really, so so
over, you know, twenty something years ago, he was we knew he was kinda moving on in the next step of his his ministry journey, and he was gonna be a lead lead pastor. And so at the same time,
I had gotten I just felt like we were supposed to go start a church. That's a whole story of how I I feel like God called put that on my heart, but a lot of it had to do with understanding Bill and his personality and his just style, all this stuff I knew that going to an established church wasn't gonna be the best
thing for him and starting a church would be. He wasn't on board with the idea. So we we there there was a you know this time frame in there where we went and visited several churches because they wanted him to be the lead pastor and we would go and meet with these people and they were lovely people.
I just would walk out of there and just be like, oh my gosh this is gonna be terrible Bill, if you take this it's gonna be terrible and he would be like, oh no, I think this could be I kinda like this, I think this could work and I was like I don't what are you but
what I what I knew of Bill was that he was gonna go into a church and he was going to be frustrated with how a lot of things were going. He would frustrate them. He would take the church down, I don't know maybe it'd take a year, two or three years, but eventually the church would be down to like five people
and then he'd have to like start it over as if he was planting a church. So I was like, let's skip that middle part and go straight to church planting. But still he wasn't he wasn't on board with that. And what began to happen was I began to get really resentful towards him because I felt like a,
God had put this on my heart. I had shared it with him and it was because of what I knew of him and understood of his personality of the whole thing, leadership style, and he he wasn't he was just like, yeah I'm not interested. So so my heart was was getting kind of like
critical and and my heart was getting resentful and I was getting critical in Nagy and I know a lot of that was was fear too, but I think we were like heading to one of the another church at some point and
like I was just getting ready to lay into him and she's like, you serious we're going through this again? We're gonna go and it's gonna be the same thing again and we're gonna fight about this again and like ready to just let him have it. And God I I I heard God just be like, Carrie,
step away and shut your mouth. And I was like, okay. I'm like, you want me out of the way while you take him out? Like that's fine. I will gladly the blast zone. Have Adam. And he was like, really the conviction in my heart was like, no. I needed to look at my heart and really just be willing to surrender it all,
and like submit to whatever the next step was that we were gonna do. And I did. It it went against everything in me. It went against all that Sicilian blood in me to like keep it shut and not not
keep talking about it, but I did. And I I don't honestly I don't even remember how long it was. It was long enough to to really recognize that you know what?
This this dream, this desire, this thing that I was sure that I knew that what was best for Bill and us and what the Lord had put on my heart that it may not play out how I thought it was supposed to play out. It may
I don't know what it was gonna look like. It may not look it may never happen. It may happen in a while. We may take an established church. We whatever, but I had to let it go. And then yeah. However long it was when Bill was at a conference, and he calls me late one night and he's like, I have an idea.
I think we should start a church.
I'm not sure it happened exactly like that. Just like that. I was there. But she was right. And so in other words, this this respectful support.
A lot of people think that means to to be a pushover, to just wait, you know, meekly in the corner and wait for the husband to go, I have thus decided this is what our family is doing. Okay. That's not support. I appreciated that you realize even her challenging and saying that she knew me,
and she wanted what was best, and and it wasn't just about her, it was about us. And we had conversation and we spoke. Because the problem is when you make a role just about who gets to make a decision or who gets, you start thinking about yourself and authority instead of responsibility.
And what Jesus gave us was responsibility as husband and wife. It's not about authority. And so what her her respect started with with yeah. When she started to get the attitude, that's when it starts to it'll frustrate and know. But when she was
quite like matter of fact, when she got quiet, finally were at one church, and I was like and we I remember we went to was that the Del Taco in in up there in the But we're sitting in this because we were poor back then, and and then actually, I still would go to Del Taco because I eat terrible. But
and and and I looked, and I started asking her questions. Because I was like, hey, why why do you what what do you really see here? What's going on? What would be the problem with this? And then I had to look into my own and realize, you know, I was wrestling with some stuff,
and honestly, I was actually trying to to lead in in that lead with sacrificial love.
It wasn't that I was being selfish or or lazy. It was like I knew what it would cost us to do this. And I said, I got two kids. I was like, do you realize? And that's what I'd ask her. This is what started where I said, do you realize that the reason I'm fighting this is
are you ready for us to not have a house and maybe live in an apartment? Are you ready for us to go are you ready for the fact that in order to do this we probably have to cash out the retirement we have to do this? It puts us in a very scary spot.
So the reality is her her her what you said the respect for makes it hard is that fear of security and all that letting go. And I was resisting it because I didn't wanna have to put you in a fearful insecure place.
And that's when she said, I know that. And for some reason I feel still feel like what God is saying and who you are, because I know you and I love you as my husband, this would actually in many ways be the safer way to go if we trust God. And that's what was in my head when I went to the conference.
Because I was sitting there and I had to check my heart and go, you know what? Am I really just afraid because I she's and I knew that, man, if she's willing to go all in the scary, but that has to be the Holy Spirit talking. Because she's not normally like that.
So then I got, oh, so this is I should listen. So guys, when it comes to respectful support, it's not like you shut up and do what you're told. It it it's it's it's you come involved, you have community, you make decisions together, you you unite, it's mutual,
and and you talk and you share. But yeah, there comes a point where it's asking you say, you know what? Maybe I should just back off and be I will support you.
That's your your Jesus in the Garden Of Gethsemane. Because guess what? Jesus in the Garden Of Gethsemane sweat blood. He was so stressed out. He didn't sweat blood the next day. The big part was the challenge he was getting because he knew what it was gonna mean. And he was like, alright, this might not be this might be difficult, but not my will. Your will be done. But if you realize, Jesus was part of the planning of that.
It wasn't like the father came to him and said, you know nothing about this, but I need you to go die. And it was more like he was a part of the plan, and then he was willing to submit. And that's really what that is. And that's what I love about my wife, because she she respectfully supports me.
And sometimes you need the challenge. You need that. You need to talk. You need to work things out. Sometimes if you can't make a decision, it's because you're trying to make the wrong decision.
And maybe it's not plan a or plan b, and I got plan a, and your job is to submit to plan a, to stop with plan b. Maybe the reason we can't come to a conclusion is God wants plan c. And through the communication, you figure that out.
And so that's kinda and you know what? What I really loved is that you said it's it's about what really scares you is about giving up security and safety. Now, bear in mind, little disclaimer, none of this applies to abuse. None of this applies to being forced into doing great sin because you're respecting.
That is off the table. We're talking about the everyday squabbles of like trying to just get on with life and try to figure out and get your needs met and do all that. It's it's just talking about that. And and it and it's it's really
the safety and security is is like, can I trust you with that? And that was interesting. Because as transitioning to what the the husband's called to do is I remember when my my my my we were moved out here to start the church, you were talking to my mom, and you just asked her. I never asked this question. She's like, hey, what is it you liked about Bill, my dad,
the most? The And she goes, she just he's safe. And we automatically assumed that meant, you know, if someone broke into the house, woe to them.
Because if you knew my dad, that guy's not living if he doesn't want to to. And and it was like she goes, I know physical safety. That was never a a fear of of my matter of fact, she would be if someone caused an issue that looks scary, be a 20 year old guy. And my dad go, what? And my mom would go, Bill, don't hurt him.
It's like that's how much confidence she had. But she goes, it's not that. That's a given. But it's the fact that he does take that bold protective personality, and and he he he never turns it in to us. He is safe for me. He battles out there. He builds in here. And I think I watched my parents do that and learn from that.
And I go, guys, a lot of times we struggle with, why doesn't my wife respect and follow me, and why is this such a struggle? It's because in our role, we try to build our empire out there. Our goals are all out there. What we want in our lives is all out there.
And and we might even cover it with a little spiritual ease like, well I'm going and taking over the world with this business, or what I'm trying to do to get the money is because I'm I'm providing for you. It's going beyond providing.
Because if you're out there battling, if you're out there trying to build to the point that you're not building in the home, you're gonna be battling in the home and you have it backwards. And that's why it says for the husband
is we submit, I submit to my wife by leading through sacrificial love. And leading doesn't mean boss. Leading does not mean taking charge. It means leading the charge. It means you're gonna be the first. In scripture when it says what it does, it says you go first, and you go farthest,
and you lay down your life. He says, first thing he says, love your wife. And it uses the word agape, which is this Greek word that means this complete one-sided love. That you you It means you will lay down your life. It means I am gonna completely take care of you and care about your needs above my own.
And you know how many times it says that for us to do that, guys? Six times in this passage. You know how many times it told her to love me and and the wife to love the husband? Zero. Bupkis. Not at all. The only thing it asks you to do, ladies, is respect that. Respect him.
Believe in him. Support him. If you come in a pinch, go, hey, you know, I'm gonna lay down my fear of security, and I'm gonna say I will trust and I will follow. That's all it's asking you to do. But it tells the guy six times, you know, you're Jesus in the garden. It calls us to be Jesus on the cross.
And I know that's hard because we're sitting here going, but you don't know my wife. She's crucifying me. Exactly. That's what it says. You love anyways. You do what Jesus did. He got on the cross to love the people that put him on the cross.
When Jesus came when it says love Christ like love your wife like Christ loved the church, Christ's entire purpose of coming into becoming a man
was the church. He His whole life, he laid down his no personal interest. No was all for her.
That's the challenge. That's what leadership means. And he uses four other words. So there's five different things that it it it describes what that looks like. If you go through the scripture, it says it says, not this love comes that's put her needs above your own. But then it goes on and says, you make her holy and clean. And he's saying what that means is you encourage the spiritual growth. You need to be the one that's spiritually leading.
And it's not spiritual bossing. It's it's it's it's it's it's not being an emperor. It's being an example. It's it's being the one that you go first. You should be leading out in all the spirit. That no, grow, go and trust the Lord. The husband should lead the way. Not tell the way. Not be passive. Lead the way.
It doesn't mean you need to know the Bible more than your wife. There was a time I did, but now she started reading her Bible so much. She's about to she's actually finishing up her master's degree in theology here. She's gonna out educate me here in a few weeks.
So I can't even beat her in a bible battle anymore. So I I I can't manipulate that way. So that that weapon got taken away. No. It's like you encourage the spiritual growth. Then it says to feed. That idea in verse 29, it says, you're gonna be emotionally, physically supportive. And then cares that uses word cherish, that means to be gentle, affectionate, and protective. Means you build in the home, you battle out there. You don't go build your life out there and battle with your ex. You need to give me what I want so I can go do this.
Or as my mom said, we need to be safe.
And all I know is it says in scripture to women in another passage talking about this, Peter's talking about it, it says if you're a wife and it's talking about you're married to a non believer. Meaning this guy is not being what he's called to be at all. And it says, respect him anyways. Respectfully support him anyways.
And don't be the one to leave. Like I said, abuse and all that, you leave. But he's but it says, because that is your one chance to win him over. Because God built us. He knows. Guys, ladies, guys will live up or down to what you think about them. And they know what you think even if you say the right words.
Because you can't help but say it in a way that's like, you said the right thing, but why do I feel like you stabbed me in the heart while doing that? And a guy's like, if you just you say, I'll follow you, but you're an idiot. You know what he's gonna act like? An idiot. If
you do the Gideon treatment, you know, the angel of the Lord Jesus came to Gideon when he was hiding and being a coward and said, mighty warrior.
A guy will kill himself. Most of the time, you can be a real idiot and be so far in sin, but most of your one chance is that. And it's the same way for us guys. If you have a wife that you think she's not respecting and following you, I guarantee if you do this,
you That's why the bible says, doesn't command her to love you. I guarantee if you do this, she will love you. You don't have to say, you know, follow me because I'm the leader. Yeah. And I don't think I don't think, you know, we we can't tell each other to, you know, You and can try. Well, and we have probably in a well,
I have never said bad things in a fight of course. I thought we promised to be honest while we're up here.
Listen. In a fight, she said good things with really bad words.
So anyway, what I was what I was saying no. I in all honesty, listen and again, we probably have said some really bad things in in fights, but he's just I've he's never said to me, I'm the leader. You have to follow me. Follow me. I'm the leader. Because she's Sicilian and she knows a guy, so No. Because I learned Be true.
My dad even said this, leading men in combat, anything, coaching, if you gotta look at anybody and say, hey, you're not listening, follow me because I'm the leader, You ain't the leader. You're not leading.
And and and so a lot of times that's what brings up the the weird thing that the number one question we have, we put a survey out there like what are some questions you have. The number one question I think we got from like Christian people was
how do you who makes a call when you can't make a decision? It's all about the authority question. Who gets to decide? Who gets
that that's not Yeah. It's not the right question Yeah. Is the problem. That's not the right because where does that come from? Mean, I when you're asking that question, what are you really saying? Yeah. I feel I feel like that I feel like that is sort of just this like, hey, you know,
give me just this, what's the word I was saying like in a technicality, you know when it comes down to it who makes that final call? And I I don't like that question because I do think it's the wrong question. I think ultimately, really God is always calling us to obedience to him, which is mutual submission,
mutual selflessness. Him the the husband being Jesus on the cross, sacrificial love, the wife being Jesus in the Garden Of Gethsemane, willing to submit. And so you're you're moving forward in that, and I think that it comes on, you know if you're if you're living that way
in your daily lives, in your everyday lives, these these big moments, I don't know it's just sort of like it's not any different than any other thing that you're any other way that you're living. Yeah. But again, know, sacrificially loving why do I always forget my what I'm what do we call it?
Respectful support. Respectful support. Of course you are. She did your part. I can't remember what it was called.
We are called to do that whether here's the kicker, whether the other person is doing that or not. But so am I. Right. So when you just say I want the technicality, focus on,
well I'm I'm the husband, I'm the leader. If it comes down to a pinch, she's supposed to respect. Now you've gone back to the authority question, and you're not thinking about your responsibility in that moment. And
I'm telling you, if you worried more about what God asked you to do, you're not gonna have you're gonna get to a solution on these problems. I think most people ask that question is what's happening is the other person's not doing their role, and you're worried about it, and you want to make them do the other role,
and you're thinking that means I don't have to do mine. No. This is a covenant. Covenants are one-sided promises. That's what Jesus made a covenant with us. He came and died for us while we were yet sinners. He's asked the wife to respectfully support even if thou's not, like I said, abuse, all that.
Out of the question. And he asked the husband to sacrificially lay down his life even if the wife's not doing it. As a matter fact, this is hard stuff. Some of us probably need some counsel for it. You could because like you said earlier, this may be simple to understand technically, it's not easy to do. And
and and sometimes you get baggage, you know, from living it the way you've been living it. And there's sometimes spiritual abuse. I mean, the biggest thing I hear is a husband acting like, you know, she has to do what I say. I'm the spiritual leader. And yeah, have to love her. I have to care for her. But it's more like I have to tell her what she needs.
That Some husbands talk about their wife at a level of how they gotta control them that's more than how they talk about their own children. That's not right. That's basically taking the spiritual version and trying to put the broken version into it.
And and the reality is what it's asking us to do is is if you take the word for cherish, and in first Peter he uses a different word for cherish. So it says the husband, the love sacrificially, this this sacrificial love,
and and and the the cherish, the word for the the the the cherish and then the wife's word for submit is the same one. It's literally this, it means to
to bow down before the husband. But then the word for cherish for the husband, it says to lift up and put on a pedestal. What happens if one bows down and one lifts up? Where are you at? Eye to eye. It's not about authority, guys. It's about responsibility.
And you like that that illustration. I do love this this illustration, and I think really too because it is such a beautiful representation of what that mutual submission is to each other. And just, you know, I I can't imagine that I'm alone in this and and having wrestled with understanding
what what submission and what what the role, you know, what God has said about this. Not because I doubted God, I just didn't understand. And I've you know, the frustration with how the world has manipulated and abused it, not all of that. So I I think it is so I think it's so beautiful and I love that bowing down,
know, that is scary. It's vulnerable. It's it's goes against it's counterintuitive sometimes. It's definitely counter cultural, And as well as that lifting up on a pedestal, all of that, it's it's can feel scary, vulnerable, and risky, and I think it's just it's absolutely actually the opposite. It's not weak. It's strength.
And it's tenderness. It's tenderness. So I think it's I think it's beautiful. I've I've always loved that. Yeah. And and once you understand that and you fight for it, you fight for each other instead of with each other more often, you get to a great place.
Thirty three years, we've had lots of fights. We've had moments. This is challenging. You have moments that you're just selfish. You have moments you're really overwhelmed, moments you're fearful. But when you fight through that together, you get to this point that our favorite term for each other is you're my favorite.
And this is my favorite person. Same. That on on the planet because she is truly I am the blessed lucky person. And and and with her, and I actually this morning was driving here and I looked at her and said, thanks for doing this with me. And she thought I meant this.
And and I and she goes, wait. Do you mean something? I go, yeah. Thanks for doing all of this with me. And thank you that we wouldn't be sitting here right now if it wasn't for you being Jesus to me. And that's now we're gonna cry, aren't Yeah. Know. We we gotta Let me transition. They just had a moment.
Better not get awkward. Too late. But it still comes back to why these roles? And what's the answer to even how? Because it's simple, but it's not easy. And you realize the answer to why these roles is found in the very first marriage and when sin entered the world in the third chapter
of the book of Genesis, the first book of the bible, the very beginning. And it and it says it this way. Just listen to this and just see it from a different point of view on why God asked us to do this.
And it says, the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden? Of course, we may eat from the fruits and the trees in the garden. The woman replied, it's only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden we're not allowed to eat. God said you must not eat it or even touch it. Not even touch it was not what God told Adam. So she either added to this or Adam added to it when he told her this. I don't know what happened.
But if you do, you will die. And then the Satan says, you won't die, the serpent replied to the woman. God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil. Now, that's kind of an indirect lie. He's he manipulated.
He knew they would die differently, and he said you will have this wisdom. You will have your eyes open knowing good and evil, because you're gonna experience what evil is. You're gonna feel shame and guilt and be sin and broken.
He made it sound like God's holding out on you and you're gonna get something that he's not giving you. So the first sin was this lie built on don't trust God. What he's asking you to do is holding back. Don't believe his plan because it won't work.
And it says right there, the woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious. She wanted the wisdom it would give her. She took some of the fruit and ate it.
Then she gave some to her husband who was with her. And he ate it too. Most people you're so you think he isolated one. He was there the whole time. He watched the Satan lie. He watched him. He he watched his wife say it wrongly from what God said, and he watched her eat it first, and he did nothing. He sat there. Maybe
he was bit not listening because he was staring at a rock imagining it was a TV, and there was this thing called sports on it. I don't know.
But all I know is in that moment, they felt shame and guilt and they went and hid from God. And here's what's interesting. When God looks for them, he calls out to Adam first and holds him accountable and and and and and and that because why? And why does the New Testament says
the first Adam brought sin into the world, the second Adam, Jesus, who was in the garden, didn't fall for the lies? Why is it the first Adam and not Eve? Because I believe Adam had already sinned by the time she took that fruit and ate it. He had already broken this flourish. He already didn't trust God,
and he already acted selfish because he did nothing. He didn't stand in the gap. He didn't say anything. The reason he did that is he was convinced as well. But he didn't even love his wife. At least if you're convinced and you love him, you're like, what if we're wrong? What if you do die? Why didn't he just bite it first?
He left her out there unsafe, unprotected. I think he honestly did because he said, well, if she dies, I'll just go to God and go, I don't know why she did that. Can I have a new wife? Maybe. I mean, it's funny, but it's also true. I mean, what was he thinking?
And so when God calls him out, he here's what he says. The man replied in verse 12, it was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit and I ate it. Wow. That is an epic level of blame shifting. He throws her under the bus. It was the woman and just for secure just for a little extra assurance that you gave me.
So it's like, you know, it's doubly not my fault because you gave me this defective woman, and that's kinda your fault. And you know, we still do that. We blame shift. When we get into selfishness instead of selflessness because of our broken relationship with God where we don't trust him. We try to control,
and in that moment he's blaming now. And how many of us are saying, you know what? I got a messed up spouse. Many of you it was like it's her fault. And you know what? God why did you why does why is this happening? We don't take responsibility. And so he threw it on her. And so then he looks at at at her
down in verse 16. No. No. No. Where is it? Right after this. He says,
oh, here it is. He looks at her and says, what have you done? And she says, serpent deceived me. He looks at the serpent and said, what did you do? I go, it was the cat's fault. I mean, it's it's always the cat's fault. But if you look at that, they're blame shifting. They're selfish now. They're not selfless.
And then he says, here's gonna be the consequence. Not God's gonna make this happen. He said this is just what's gonna happen. And when you look at it front of her brain, see if this does not just describe what it's like trying to be married in our world today. And it always has been. He said
to the woman, he says, I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy and the pain you'll give birth. That doesn't just mean it's gonna be more painful to to have a baby. He's describing it's gonna be more painful to be a mom, to be a parent. Because now sin has entered, and you're gonna birth sinners.
And that's gonna break your heart. And it's gonna be stressful. It's gonna be harder to raise a child. Because that's just ask her a few months, a few pages later when when one of her sons kills the other and does the first murder. It's gonna hurt, and that's gonna be stressful and difficult.
And then she says, and your desire to control your desire you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you. So you're gonna want it your way. You will not respect. What you're gonna wanna do is be in control because of all the stress and all this pain. And out of your fear, you're gonna wanna control,
and he's not gonna react. He's gonna be passive until he gets aggressive. Because as you try to manipulate,
he's gonna get mad and wanna be left alone, so he'll dominate. He'll start yelling. He'll start pushing away. And literally he's talking about he can use his physical size to say, I'm not doing anything you want me to do.
And then he looks at the man and he says, and since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat, the ground is cursed because of you. And all your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it, and it will grow thorns and thistles for
for you, though you will eat of its grains. So he says, alright. So alive is gonna be difficult to be parents. It's gonna be stressful. You're gonna be stressed. It's gonna be more painful. And then for for and then you're gonna wanna control and manipulate. He's gonna be mad. He's gonna wanna be passive and dominate.
And then in part of the reason he's gonna be this way is because it's gonna be really hard to make a living. So you're gonna live because greed's entered the world. Broken is entered. The ground is actually harder to to to to produce something from. It's gonna be harder to go make a living. Does that not sound like the everyday stress of why we end up in these fights and marriages?
We don't have enough money. It's struggling. I gotta go work. It's really hard. We got these kids. They're a pain. We're both trying to work. We're both trying to raise these kids. They're little sinners too. And then you come home and you play the game of who had the hardest day to try to convince the other person they ought to serve you instead of you serving them. It becomes about what I need you to do instead of what I need to do because and then you do. We've all done it. You go, well, had to do this. They why I had a tough meeting. Well, the Jimmy threw up. Well, I had to do this, and then I had to do that. Well, I took a bullet for the president. Well, I walked on the moon.
You know, and and and and we play that game, and it's exhausting. So if you look at this, what God really is asking us to do in Ephesians is I want you to do the opposite of what happened in this garden. I'm asking the wife to respectfully support. Don't manipulate. Don't take the lead. But I'm asking the man to lead out
and don't be passive and be sacrificial in your love. And the truth is that'll never happen unless you've understand and have the love of Christ. You can only love like Jesus if you've been loved by Jesus.
And he puts it right here. The answer is right here. When he talks to the serpent in verse 15, he says, I will cause hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.
That's the gospel right there. That offspring he's talking about is Jesus. He says, you're gonna there's gonna be this battle of sin and this, but you're against the Lord's will, and there's gonna be a man that's gonna come across that's singular. There's gonna come a man that's gonna put an end to this.
And you're gonna strike him on the heel like a snake. It's like kind of like using the illustration that is why you wear the taller boots if you're in snake country. Because a leather snake will it bites and it gets its claws stuck in its its fangs stuck in your boot, and it thinks it got you, but it didn't.
And then all you do, in fact, is you just wrestle it around, swing it around, go squash its head. You crushed it. And what he's saying is Jesus is gonna come along, you're gonna lie, you're gonna try to manipulate, you're gonna think he won when he goes on the cross, and you didn't realize, no, that's how he won.
And and you bit him on the heel, but he is going to crush your head.
And what that means is he's gonna be able to make it right. We can be made right with God. We can be love God. We can be back in that relationship with God, which then can allow us to be back in the right relationship with each other. That mutual selflessness
that's focused on our relationship with God, being Jesus for one another. And I'm telling you, when we live out these roles consistently,
when we fight for them, not fight with each other, when we do that, we now have that's what the old book of Ephesians has been about up to this point is we have the Holy Spirit's power. We can be filled with the spirit. We can choose to love this way. We can choose to let go of those fears because that's what Jesus did for us. And when we do that, guess what we do in this world? We
crush snakes. We crush the lives of the enemy, and we live separate, and we are holy, and we show the world what love really is. That's what we get to do, and that's what I thank her for doing with me for thirty three years. And I would like everyone to be able to experience that. So are you? Let's pray.
Father God, I just thank you, Lord, that you do crush snakes.
That Lord, that you love us. So I pray for myself, my wife, every person in this room, everyone who's married, everyone who's maybe gone through something really tough. Maybe they're just recently divorced or it's heading that way. I just pray that, Lord, that they
just return to your love no matter where they're at. People are sitting here that aren't married, that wanna get married, that they will take this and think about this deeply as they move forward in any kind of dating relationship.
And Lord, I thank you that you led the way by dying for us on the cross. And may we always, always come back to that love first and foremost, to give us the power to then love and be Jesus to one another. I pray this in the mighty name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Hey, I love you guys. I love my wife.
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